Elizabeth wrote him a letter. You can read it in this comment. But I wanted to focus on this insane response, so I’m not re-posting it here.
Pastor Bryan Griem’s reply:
Elizabeth,
The thing you did not tell me in this negative letter to me is if your nephew believes in God or not. That was the question to me. “Does it matter if someone believes in God or not when serving the military?” It had nothing to do with the people we send our soldiers to defend. They can be anything, and we still have to be the good guys and do as you say your nephew does, help the Afghani children who need us. Where was I making light of this?
My whole argument is against those who hate God, who pull down our cross monuments to our US soldiers that die serving our country, who want us to remove all the crosses from Arlington Cemetery because they are offensive to the atheist who hates God and essentially everyone who believe in Him. What have any of my comments got to do with good soldiers that serve this country, unless they are like the complainers that hate God and country, and only serve the military to get college money or advancement?
I don’t know your nephew, so how can you chew me out for insulting him? My nephew too serves the United States Marines. I’m proud of him. He serves God too. My father was in the United States Coast Guard. My brothers serve in the California state police departments as a result them. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the military, but I tire of these oddballs who hate God and want witchcraft symbols on their gravestones, or as my answer proposed, a “thumbs down.”
Only the atheist hates God, and the Bible calls him a “fool.” The Bible calls him that because the fool denies what is true and right and good. The Bible is God’s Word, and as a good Christian minister I have not remained like those other cultic ministers on IN THEORY and kissed the Devil’s behind, I have said what is right. If you would leave my church because I echoed the words of Almighty God, then I think it says more about your faith than mine. I do not want to be an antagonist, I do not want to insult the soldiers, but if a soldier hates God and doesn’t like me telling him that God says he’ll end up in hell for his rebellion,that’s kind of too bad, wouldn’t you agree?Should I just say nice things and tell people who are going to hell that they will be fine; don’t worry about that loser Jesus?
How is that loving? My job is to give them the truth and let the Holy Spirit work within them to save them. Everyone of us is lost without Jesus Christ. If you can attend church and say that’s untrue, then I doubt you are truly Christian. Again, that is not to insult you, it is simply the biblical truth. I’m not in this to be popular with you or people who don’t want preachers to actually say that people must be saved, I just say it and let the chips fall where they may. I have not been mean to anyone of other religions, but I admit in this last article I was hard on those who openly hate god and define themselves as “atheist.” If that is their position, be they soldiers, nephews, or boy-scouts, they are offensive to our Holy God and to the whole of his people (all of Christianity). Tell me where I am wrong in this. Show me a passage of Scripture that says the atheist who dies is just fine having rejected God. Do you believe that?Is your nephew an unbeliever? If he is, thank him for me that he serves our country, then tell him with all seriousness of life and death, that he must serve God and accept Jesus Christ as savior. If you do not, then his destiny will be on your head, not mine.
Sincerely,
~Pastor Bryan
The rare double fail
Listen, Bryan. No atheist ‘hates god’. Your breakdown of the word atheist is simply wrong. The prefix “a” doesn’t mean ‘against’, it means ‘without’. The prefix for ‘against’ is “anti”.
But your use of the term “anti-theist” would still be wrong, because you don’t know what the word “theist” means either. Kind of embarrassing for a preacher. Theism is the belief that there is one or more god. Atheism is the lack of such belief.
Do you hate Zeus? Ra? Set? Ares? Anubis? No. You simply lack belief in their existence, so why would you hate them? How could you even hate them?
It makes sense that you’d be wrong about two parts of a single word. You always came off as a two-scoops type of guy.
“2 scoops of fail, please.”
If anybody else gets a reply, please let me know. This man is too cowardly to answer mine.
The recent article about mandatory Spiritual Fitness in the Pasadena Sun was overall quite positive. Out of a group of 10 or so religious leaders from various religious preferences, the vast majority were on our side. I’m actually happy that only a few took a stand against us.
One of them at least tried to pair his response with the US Constitution, but fell victim to the Army’s smoke-screen ‘this is about team-spirit’ etc. I left a comment containing a thorough refutation. I invited civilians to educate themselves with the Army’s Virtual Spiritual Fitness Center to decide the religiosity of Spiritual Fitness (website by the same people). My comment was actually supposed to be a part of the article itself, not sure what happened there.
But then Rev. Bryan Griem lost his damn mind. Fuck everything about this:
There’s an adage I expect will be repeated by other ministers responding to this question. It goes, “there are no atheists in foxholes.” Meaning, when bombs burst, everyone hedges their bets and prays, “God, save me!” There’s a joke about one combat vet who prayed “Lord, if you’re there, I’ll serve you and attend church every Sunday; just get me through.” The Air Force immediately comes and blasts everything, answering the man’s prayer. He then looks up to heaven and says “never mind….”
I know that religious people have security that atheists don’t. If you believe in life after life, you fight harder, risk more, and serve better than a guy who thinks, “this is it!” If you believe you’re nothing but worm-food at death, you aren’t going to jump on a grenade to save the platoon, or charge a machine-gun nest expecting to meet Jesus. You’re going to be reserved, second-guessing, and probably be a big fat chicken.
Look, you just read the stats: “Researchers have found that spiritual people have decreased odds of attempting suicide, and that spiritual fitness has a positive impact on quality of life, on coping and on mental health.” Atheists be damned. They will be. So I really don’t care what they think regarding these tests. I’m tired of having their constant nagging, their constant opposition against God — their evil. They contribute nothing positive in the long run.Their very name, “a” theist, means they are “against,” with a big “no” regarding America’s “creator” and “Nature’s God” (the one mentioned in our Declaration of Independence). I’m frankly sick of them. Why they are here on the In Theory cast is beyond me. It’s like saying, “I have no spiritual input because I don’t believe in the spirit. So here’s my ignorance….”
I wonder what the military puts on gravestones of atheists, a thumbs-down? Listen, all religions are protected by our laws, but atheists don’t countenance America’s documents that mention God. They don’t actually deserve rights that even bizarre religionists have. If it could be shown that people who deny God create military weakness, however small, what should commanders do when choosing a winning military? I agree with you.
The Rev. Bryan Griem
Montrose Community Church
Montrose
Readers quickly noticed that Pastor Bryan has a form that lets you contact him. I sent him an email, and I recommend you do so as well. Let me know what you get in response. I imagine a big fat nothing.
Here’s what I asked Rev. Bryan Griem: (below the fold)
The Pasadena Sun has a great collection of various religious leaders’ thoughts on the mandatory Spiritual Fitness testing and training in the US Military.
Rev. Skip Lindeman – United Church of Christ:
…
Think about it: A guy takes the test and gets all A-grades on spirituality, and then says, “Gimme a gun so I can go kill as many of the enemy as I can!” Is that what a spiritual person does? How can anybody be spiritual, and then go blow another human being (i. e., child of God, made in the image of God) to smithereens? Please!
OK, that’s the philosophical issue; now, how about the discrimination issue? It is obviously discriminatory to those who deem themselves non-religious to be forced to take a spirituality test. And I’m not surprised that those complaining are saying that what goes on is “Christianity-lite.”…
Come on, Army. Be all that you can be. In America, that means you have to be fair. A spirituality test is not fair.
The Rev. Skip Lindeman
Rabbi Simcha Backman – Chabad Jewish Center
…But a separate test focused specifically on spiritual fitness that probes one’s religious beliefs and practices is, in my opinion, entirely out of place.
The modern U.S. military stands out as an institution of tremendous diversity, where individuals of many cultures, races, and religious beliefs converge for the one purpose of protecting our great country.
We must ensure that the military remains respectful of differing beliefs, and that it provides equal treatment to every person who takes up the noble calling of service.
Check out the full article, and spread it! There are many more religious leaders from a variety of faith backgrounds represented. Watch out for the one who seemed to buy into the BS (buried on the third or fourth page).
I was contacted by the LA Times (I guess they circulate articles to other venues too) to be a part of this collection. My comments specifically addressed the typical army line of defense. But I guess mine didn’t make the cut. So here they are:
This may be ‘more’ unconstitutional than it is on money.
It certainly reveals the man behind the curtain with the coins in your pocket.
The motto was first challenged in Aronow v. United States in 1970, but the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit ruled: “It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency ‘In God We Trust’ has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise.” The decision was cited in Elk Grove Unified School District v. Newdow, a 2004 case on the Pledge of Allegiance. These acts of “ceremonial deism” are “protected from Establishment Clause scrutiny chiefly because they have lost through rote repetition any significant religious content.”
These coins are not meant to be used as money. From wikipedia:
A challenge coin is a small coin or medallion (usually military), bearing an organization’s insignia or emblem and carried by the organization’s members. They are given to prove membership when challenged and to enhance morale. In addition, they are also collected by service members.
Notice the Buddhist Wheel? That is the symbol used by the single Buddhist military chaplain, so it makes sense in this limited public forum. But many Buddhists don’t believe in any gods whatsoever. I’d argue against referring to them as atheists, as it still is clearly a religion. The religious jargon is very thick here, nearly indecipherable.
However, the chaplaincy itself is in desperate need to embrace all religious preferences equally – including allowing non-religious groups to use their community-building resources (buildings, systems of collecting money, outreach). The Spiritual Fitness testing and training (mandatory for all) even tried to claim that chaplains are advocates for everyone regardless of beliefs. It is our hope that this will become true, but as it stands atheist groups are banned on every post – because of chaplain regulations.
The Establishment Clause has repeatedly been upheld to mean this:
Government can’t favor one religion over another. Additionally, government can’t favor religion over non-religion.
So the slogan “in god we trust” is just as problematic as it is on our money. Atheists also outnumber Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist in the military, and by a large margin. We deserve recognition and a seat at the same table as our religious counter-parts. Atheism is not a religion and nothing can ever make it one. But the government must still give atheists the same level of support as any other group, and right now we are not getting that from the chaplaincy.
I’ve been specifically denied the right to put out a pamphlet at chapels about our group. I’ve been denied the right to be represented on a mural outside a hospital on the border of Iraq/Kuwait (pretty much the same symbols on the coin were spray painted on a concrete barrier… just wanted to put an atheist symbol right there next to them.) We’re all still denied the right to meaningfully meet on post, or have access to group-sustaining features that all others get.
Promising things have happened recently, and perhaps we’ll soon be able to make these smaller corrections. I can’t see how rote repetition could possibly cause these coins to lose their religious significance, so we have time. It appears that a constitutional challenge would be an easy win.
You may have seen Jon Stewart speak about the insanity from Fox News personality Liz Trotta. It was brutal. He championed the natural facepalm reaction to her comments in a glorious way. It was funny, but it still made you want to cry, or scream. I actually yelled at my TV.
Representative Jackie Speier, who also told the House of Representatives in Feb the story about her abortion while they decided whether to de-fund planned parenthood, made a statement about rapes in the military. In her speech the following points were made-
Women in the U.S. military are more likely to be raped by fellow soldiers than killed by enemy fire.
One victim was lectured by the base chaplain, who claimed that 96 percent of sexual assaults on women occur when drinking is involved. The victim had not been drinking.
In another case after seeking the assistance of the military chaplain, he told her “it must have been God’s will for her to be raped” and recommended she attend church more frequently.
The Department of Defense estimates that more than 19,000 service members were raped or sexually assaulted in 2010.
Only 13.5 percent of the victims report when they have been raped.
I don’t know about you but when I read this my response was “What the fuck?!” Estimated 19,000??
19,000? How could this possibly be going on? I have no idea how this could be allowed to go on and people are not outraged. I hope Jackie can get something done about it. Maybe she will have better luck than she did with the planned-parenthood deal. The way it’s been going the fucking Republicans will probably vote to open more churches on military bases, after all the chaplain said to “attend more church services”
Now if anyone ever wonders why I feel like it is important to speak out against organized religion, this is a good example.
I’ve heard that there are some issues with exactly how ‘rape / sexual assault’ numbers were calculated for that study. But still the metrics are rising, no matter which set of definitions you use… (‘unwanted sexual contact including smack on the ass?’ etc… all rising.)
With that in mind, it’s clear to see that rape is not treated with the same level of support as actively attempting to convert military members to Christianity. I’ve got an idea on how to fund a program that really works – perhaps slash the budget of ‘spiritual fitness’ initiatives. Fraud, waste, and abuse. And when we clearly need real-world support for male and female soldiers that are raped.
McClatchy Newspapers were quoted in this report from worst person ever, Liz Trotta at Fox News.
And the feminists have also directed them, really, to spend a lot of money. They have sexual counselors all over the place, victims’ advocates, sexual response coordinators. Let me just read something to you from McClatchy Newspapers about how much this position on extreme feminism is costing us. “The budget for the Defense Department’s Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office leapt from $5 million in fiscal 2005 to more than $23 million in fiscal 2010. Total Defense Department spending on sexual assault prevention and related efforts now exceeds $113 million annually.” That’s from McClatchy Newspapers.
The chaplaincy aside, the DoD is spending hundreds of millions on no-bid contracts with civilians who are paid to evangelize and proselytize. I repeat, THESE numbers do notinclude the chaplaincy. Rather, they are just civilians and companies who know how to fill out forms regarding military contracting.
But the Spiritual Fitness testing and training alone costed US taxpayers $125,000,000. More than ALL of rape / sexual assault prevention and response from the entire DoD.
I received a message from a generally polite, but confused person named Jamie. Much of the letter was about something else, but he brought up a common misconception about atheists.
“You must believe that it is True that there is no God. Which logically means that the contradictory statement that there is a God is false.”- Jamie C.
My reply:
Atheists do not claim to know “there is definitely no god(s)”… one can’t prove a negative. Just like you can’t prove that god is not a flying spaghetti monster… And you also can’t prove that there isn’t some anti-universe made of antimatter with anti-people talking about a coming anti-anti-Christ.
The burden of proof rests on the person who makes extraordinary claims: talking snakes, global floods, dragons, unicorns (king james translation only), a god who impregnated a woman with a baby that actually was himself (who also already existed ‘somehow’), the hundreds of resurrections in the new testament, angels, demons, devils, satan, and other lesser gods and goddesses, witches, creating a mate for the first person from one of the first person’s ribs, I could go on…
I don’t believe any of those biblical concepts are real or possible. I believe one could disprove the Christian god (certainly a literal interpretation), but you can’t disprove ALL possible gods. So the question is – why are you so atheist towards all of those other possible gods? Answer: no good evidence for their existence. You’ve still overlooked this requirement for evidence only for your religion – hence faith.
An associated press article that ran in dozens of newspapers nationwide tells the story of US Army Major Ray Bradley. Major Bradley is currently fighting to get ‘humanist’ on the military’s official list of recognized religious preferences.
RALEIGH, N.C. – Soldiers who don’t believe in God can go to war with “Atheist” stamped on their dog tags, but humanists and others with various secular beliefs are still officially invisible in the Army.
Maj. Ray Bradley is applying to be the first humanist recognized as a “distinctive faith group leader” by the Army. In the meantime, he can’t be designated as a humanist on his official records or dog tags, although he can be classified as an atheist.
The distinction may not seem like a large one to those unfamiliar with humanism, but the Fort Bragg-based officer says it’s the equivalent of being told that “Christian” is an acceptable designation, but not “Catholic.”
He’s actually the second person at Fort Bragg to apply as a lay leader. I’m proud to have inspired this strategy, though my application was eventually denied (and I wasn’t even told until 6 months after it was denied.) I’ve not told the rather depressing end of my lay-leader story, as I didn’t want to discourage all of the others who followed my lead. But if they keep denying packets, or dragging their feet forever… we’ll be forced to change tactics.
Fort Bragg still bans atheist and humanists from meeting regularly on post. This situation is mirrored everywhere else too, even on Air Force bases like Travis. I’ve explained the reasoning behind this before, as the ban comes from chaplain regulations.
I hope Major Bradley gets the support he deserves in getting Humanist approved. Jason Torpy, at the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers (MAAF) has been extremely vocal in supporting this action. MAAF is now also taking my little ‘MASH Fort Bragg’ concept to other bases, an extremely promising development.
Unfortunately, Ray Bradley hates me right now.
Have you ever unintentionally pissed someone off with your words? I did that to him recently, and it must have really hit a nerve with him. I re-tooled the offending sentence in a blog post and sent an apology / explanation within an hour of his message. But he has not responded. Which totally sucks, because he was a valuable member of the group here.
This is coming from the Army’s website of pre-packaged videos for the media to pick up.
It’s all well and good to be respectful of fallen soldiers, and to embrace diversity among the religious preferences. But to brag about the fact that you brought the first Torah Scroll into a Muslim nation? Probably not a good idea.
This is one time that I hope they just remove the video, before some Islamic fundamentalists get a hold of it. Usually, I’d suggest they ‘keep the evidence’ etc. But this time… yikes! Please take this shit down!
Also, it’s probably a bit offensive to practicing Jews too when they mis-spelled Torah a few times. (‘Torrah’ appears in the description, and on the website). This document is actually kind of cool. I’d like to see the Army prominently display it in a more appropriate location. Or perhaps, donate it to a museum, or Jewish veteran’s group.
This probably shouldn’t have happened in the first place, but how could they greenlight a story about it? Let’s pick our battles folks. This short video could cause actually cause some battles, or damage international relations.
There was some spectacular replies from military members, veterans, and our supporters on my Facepalm wall.
Gregory S: More like “life without faith is like a dog without a cell phone.”
Rich W: … or a fish without a bicycle, or a human swimming without an attached anchor …
Claire L: Like Bill O’reilly in a library
Rich W: Life without faith is like escaping a funhouse of mirrors, or taking off ‘drunk simulation goggles’ and using telescopes and micro scopes, or learning to fly.
Jason L: Life without faith is like seeing the world in color for the first time.
Trevor N: Actually, faith itself is the tree without roots. It’s grounded in nothing. (Justin Griffith: This one was my favorite)
Rich W: Faith is just a theory, or actually a hypothesis, one can’t continue to ignore the repeated results of evidence of it’s failures. ;)
Bruce H: I would say that life without faith is more like a bird without a cage. …or maybe a fish without a lamprey.
Jeshanah C: Religion does not have a monopoly on faith and belief. We all experience those things in one way or another. I, for one, believe in myself and have faith in the human spirit. Rise above.
FIX’D: A life without faith is like a *family* tree with roots.
But I found another tree that has no roots. The biblical literalist’s family tree of the creation story! This image represents an inverted tree. It also seems to conveniently overlook the female gender for the most part, side-stepping questions like “where did Cain and Abel’s wives come from?”
Click to embiggen:
Answers to the obvious question usually propose nearly a millenium of Adam and Eve having children who have sex with each other a lot. A thousand years of incest, until well… more incest (Lot? survivors of Noah’s flood?)
A tree with less incest
At least ‘our incest’ was generally speaking, hundreds of millions of years back. Slightly outdated tree from Ernst Haeckel (circa 1879)
amidoinitrite? Am I doing it right? Well, the folks behind the *mandatory* Spiritual Fitness testing and training aren’t. You can help, by participating in this scientific research survey. It’s actually kind of cool and takes only 10 minutes.
Justin Griffith is the Military Director for American Atheists.
Justin is spearheading Fort Bragg's 'Rock Beyond Belief' atheist festival, and demanding equal treatment for foxhole atheists - including local groups who are currently banned from even meeting on post. After failing the Army's mandatory Spiritual Fitness testing, the remedial training told Justin he could improve his Spiritual Fitness by starting an 'online blog'. You may have heard about it. :)
"*Foxhole atheists are fighting for your rights. Please return the favor.*"
Come join us for free festival on Fort Bragg's Main Post Parade Field.
Featuring:
Richard Dawkins, Aiden, Roy Zimmerman, Jeffrey Lewis, Dan Barker, Margaret Downey, and many more. Bring the kids: A Professional Army Parachute Team jump, and Free child care, including kiddie land and Camp Quest activities.
Civilians are welcome!
31 March 2012 | Noon - 9PM
Please come out and support the foxhole atheist community as we slam the closet door behind us.
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The painless way to support Rock Beyond Belief is to 'Like' us on Facebook. It takes 3 seconds. You do support the troops... don't you?
Even more Facepalm
A really awesome Facebook group, American Atheists Military is uniting service members, veterans and supportive civilians. This is where a lot of important issues are first discovered, and brought to light. There is a constant stream of foxhole atheists correcting their dog tags to say 'ATHEIST' and putting them up on the wall. Throw yours up there! No 'anti-war' or 'anarchist' trolling, please.
For those of you wanting to connect directly with Justin Griffith on facebook, there are still a few spots left.
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February 22, 2012 at 8:52 am 
Justin Griffith 
OK, that’s the philosophical issue; now, how about the discrimination issue? It is obviously discriminatory to those who deem themselves non-religious to be forced to take a spirituality test. And I’m not surprised that those complaining are saying that what goes on is “Christianity-lite.”…
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